Poll: Is the 500 mile travel limit is good for high school sports in Kansas?

Option Votes Score
yes 2 8%
no 24 92%
26 Votes

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Is the 500 mile travel limit is good for high school sports in Kansas?
03/28/2017 10:54:01 AM
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What are your thoughts on the 500 mile travel limit? Do you think it serves a good purpose in high school sports in Kansas or do you think it's time to drop it and let the schools decide if their kids should compete in places farther away? The travel limit also prohibits teams from competing in Kansas that are located more than 500 miles away. I have an opinion on this question but I will post it later. I'd rather just pose the question for right now and see what others have to say.
What are your thoughts on the 500 mile travel limit? Do you think it serves a good purpose in high school sports in Kansas or do you think it's time to drop it and let the schools decide if their kids should compete in places farther away? The travel limit also prohibits teams from competing in Kansas that are located more than 500 miles away.

I have an opinion on this question but I will post it later. I'd rather just pose the question for right now and see what others have to say.
03/28/2017 3:37:02 PM
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You've hit a nerve with me. About a year ago, I had to call KSHSAA for clarification on something and in that conversation, the travel limit got brought up. Me being me and all, I couldn't let that opportunity pass by. One of my old college teammates has an incredibly talented son (4:08 as a junior last spring and won the Illinois state cross-country race in 14:01 this fall, one of the top 10 times ever on that course) who was heading out to Arcadia not long after that call, something he could actually do legally under the Illinois rules. I decided to explore exactly how they interpreted it, but I really just wanted to make a point so I layered on the in season outside competition rule as well. Then I sprung the trap. I said, "I want to make sure I understand this. Probably the greatest athlete this state ever produced was Jim Ryun, and he went out to California to become the first highschooler to break 4:00 during the season. Just to be clear, today Jim Ryun would not be allowed to do that, would he?" The woman I was speaking with immediately responded, "No, he would not." So I asked, "Does that make any sense to you at all, that you would implement rules that prohibited one of the most historic athletic performances by a high school athlete not only in this state but in this country? How is that possibly benefiting high school athletes to have what is honestly an arbitrary barrier imposed on them like that?" I will NEVER forget her response: "Well, if they're that good, they probably shouldn't be playing high school sports and taking away opportunities from other kids." Then she hung up on me. That statement speaks volumes about how those folks think. Yeah, it was probably a little snarky to set her up like that, but exposing that kind of stupidity usually isn't received well anyway.
You've hit a nerve with me.

About a year ago, I had to call KSHSAA for clarification on something and in that conversation, the travel limit got brought up. Me being me and all, I couldn't let that opportunity pass by.

One of my old college teammates has an incredibly talented son (4:08 as a junior last spring and won the Illinois state cross-country race in 14:01 this fall, one of the top 10 times ever on that course) who was heading out to Arcadia not long after that call, something he could actually do legally under the Illinois rules. I decided to explore exactly how they interpreted it, but I really just wanted to make a point so I layered on the in season outside competition rule as well.

Then I sprung the trap. I said, "I want to make sure I understand this. Probably the greatest athlete this state ever produced was Jim Ryun, and he went out to California to become the first highschooler to break 4:00 during the season. Just to be clear, today Jim Ryun would not be allowed to do that, would he?"

The woman I was speaking with immediately responded, "No, he would not."

So I asked, "Does that make any sense to you at all, that you would implement rules that prohibited one of the most historic athletic performances by a high school athlete not only in this state but in this country? How is that possibly benefiting high school athletes to have what is honestly an arbitrary barrier imposed on them like that?"

I will NEVER forget her response: "Well, if they're that good, they probably shouldn't be playing high school sports and taking away opportunities from other kids." Then she hung up on me.

That statement speaks volumes about how those folks think.

Yeah, it was probably a little snarky to set her up like that, but exposing that kind of stupidity usually isn't received well anyway.
03/28/2017 8:56:39 PM
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I don't even know why this rule exsists. I truely don't understand! I guess if teams were having to travel in a covered wagon pulled by oxen, 501 miles would be a bit much. In a conservative state I don't understand why we don't let the individual schools determine what is best for their teams and athletes. Rod, To openly announce/admit that KSHSAA high school sports aren't for national caliber athletes is tragic.
I don't even know why this rule exsists. I truely don't understand! I guess if teams were having to travel in a covered wagon pulled by oxen, 501 miles would be a bit much. In a conservative state I don't understand why we don't let the individual schools determine what is best for their teams and athletes.

Rod, To openly announce/admit that KSHSAA high school sports aren't for national caliber athletes is tragic.
03/29/2017 6:35:44 PM
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[quote=CoachBallew]Rod, To openly announce/admit that KSHSAA high school sports aren't for national caliber athletes is tragic.[/quote] @CoachBallew I know, Aaron. I really wish I'd been recording the conversation if I'd known she was going to say that. I was calling on my office phone and could've done it. I was both completely shocked and totally unsurprised all at the same time.
CoachBallew wrote:
Rod, To openly announce/admit that KSHSAA high school sports aren't for national caliber athletes is tragic.


@CoachBallew

I know, Aaron. I really wish I'd been recording the conversation if I'd known she was going to say that. I was calling on my office phone and could've done it. I was both completely shocked and totally unsurprised all at the same time.
03/30/2017 9:11:14 AM
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Like everyone else that has voted so far, I think it's time to get to work on dropping this rule from our sports here in Kansas. My understanding it that the rule exists to prevent teams from traveling all over the country and treating the kids like professionals instead of students but that fear is so highly unlikely in my opinion. Nobody has the budget or the time to travel that much and so this rule is not necessary. [b]The two major flaws I see with this rule are: [/b] 1) It prevents those truly special athletes and/or teams that do come around only once in a while the opportunity to go head to head with others that might be on their level. There are several athletes in KS track right now that deserve the opportunity to travel to a meet like Arcadia if they wanted to. Just off the top of my head we have at least 5 track athletes in KS that are truly national class and could really benefit from traveling outside 500 miles if they wanted to. 2) The rule also prevents teams from outside of that range from competing here in our state and this is truly a shame as we have one of the nation's best XC courses at Rim Rock and a premier track & field meet at the Kansas Relays. Both of those events are indeed spectacular but would be made even better if the travel limit was lifted. West Torrance High School in California wants very badly to compete at Rim Rock but they cannot so they traveled to the KC Metro meet instead. It was incredible to have them at the meet and they really put on a show defeating the KS and MO state champions. But that just made the meet even better. I know some would argue that allowing more out of state kids into KU Relays would take spots from KS kids but I would argue that it would also serve to make our kids work harder to become better. So that's my take. I don't know if I am right, I just know that is how I feel. I'd love to hear more from other people and especially what the counterpoints may be. Always important to listen to both sides.
Like everyone else that has voted so far, I think it's time to get to work on dropping this rule from our sports here in Kansas. My understanding it that the rule exists to prevent teams from traveling all over the country and treating the kids like professionals instead of students but that fear is so highly unlikely in my opinion. Nobody has the budget or the time to travel that much and so this rule is not necessary.

The two major flaws I see with this rule are:
1) It prevents those truly special athletes and/or teams that do come around only once in a while the opportunity to go head to head with others that might be on their level. There are several athletes in KS track right now that deserve the opportunity to travel to a meet like Arcadia if they wanted to. Just off the top of my head we have at least 5 track athletes in KS that are truly national class and could really benefit from traveling outside 500 miles if they wanted to.

2) The rule also prevents teams from outside of that range from competing here in our state and this is truly a shame as we have one of the nation's best XC courses at Rim Rock and a premier track & field meet at the Kansas Relays. Both of those events are indeed spectacular but would be made even better if the travel limit was lifted. West Torrance High School in California wants very badly to compete at Rim Rock but they cannot so they traveled to the KC Metro meet instead. It was incredible to have them at the meet and they really put on a show defeating the KS and MO state champions. But that just made the meet even better. I know some would argue that allowing more out of state kids into KU Relays would take spots from KS kids but I would argue that it would also serve to make our kids work harder to become better.

So that's my take. I don't know if I am right, I just know that is how I feel. I'd love to hear more from other people and especially what the counterpoints may be. Always important to listen to both sides.
03/30/2017 12:02:47 PM
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@Wrigs77 I'm not sure there are two sides to this one but I would be interested in knowing if there was some particular incident that prompted the implementation of this rule. Specific to Arcadia, here's the crazy thing: there's actually an easy way around it. Don't roster the kid until after they come back from Arcadia. It's that simple. If you have a kid capable of going to Arcadia they just don't go out for their high school team until they come back. I ran that specific example by them and after hearing crickets, they were forced to admit it wouldn't be a violation of the travel rule. Here's another absurdity. The rule makes an exception for the Olympic Trials, but in track, they aren't until well after the season is over anyway. You can run the trials, but you're not allowed to travel further than 500 miles to try and get a Trials qualifier. Remind me to tell you over a beer sometime about a case I was involved in against the Missouri activities association involving a really talented kid during cross country season.
@Wrigs77

I'm not sure there are two sides to this one but I would be interested in knowing if there was some particular incident that prompted the implementation of this rule.

Specific to Arcadia, here's the crazy thing: there's actually an easy way around it. Don't roster the kid until after they come back from Arcadia. It's that simple. If you have a kid capable of going to Arcadia they just don't go out for their high school team until they come back. I ran that specific example by them and after hearing crickets, they were forced to admit it wouldn't be a violation of the travel rule.

Here's another absurdity. The rule makes an exception for the Olympic Trials, but in track, they aren't until well after the season is over anyway. You can run the trials, but you're not allowed to travel further than 500 miles to try and get a Trials qualifier.

Remind me to tell you over a beer sometime about a case I was involved in against the Missouri activities association involving a really talented kid during cross country season.
03/30/2017 12:18:37 PM
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It appears that the rule is outdated. I routinely have students missing class to travel with their club volleyball, soccer, etc. programs. High school programs are fighting a tough battle against specialization and the opportunities club programs give (travel, guaranteed college scholarships, the cheap cost of club programs S-) ) It would be helpful if KSHSAA relaxed the reigns some and put faith in coaches and ADs to make intelligent decisions about travel.
It appears that the rule is outdated. I routinely have students missing class to travel with their club volleyball, soccer, etc. programs. High school programs are fighting a tough battle against specialization and the opportunities club programs give (travel, guaranteed college scholarships, the cheap cost of club programs ) It would be helpful if KSHSAA relaxed the reigns some and put faith in coaches and ADs to make intelligent decisions about travel.
03/30/2017 9:56:29 PM
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[quote=cm73] It would be helpful if KSHSAA relaxed the reigns some and put faith in coaches and ADs to make intelligent decisions about travel.[/quote] @cm73 That's an awful lot to ask out of an association that makes statements like "Well, if they're that good, they probably shouldn't be playing high school sports and taking away opportunities from other kids" about one of the most historic achievements in high school school sports in the U.S.
cm73 wrote:
It would be helpful if KSHSAA relaxed the reigns some and put faith in coaches and ADs to make intelligent decisions about travel.


@cm73

That's an awful lot to ask out of an association that makes statements like "Well, if they're that good, they probably shouldn't be playing high school sports and taking away opportunities from other kids" about one of the most historic achievements in high school school sports in the U.S.
03/31/2017 12:13:59 PM
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I know we don't get the number of responses here that some of us were accustomed to in the old dyestat days but so far it sure seems that everyone is on the same page. So the next question has to be, "What can we do to help get this rule changed?" I am proud of how we got the girls 5k put in to play in KS but ashamed it took so long to do what was obviously right thing. This also seems obvious to all of us so far which is why I'd still really like to hear why this rule even exists. It makes me wonder what I am not understanding or if it is indeed just a flawed, old rule. This issue seems far less polarizing than the 5k issue so how can we get our voices heard by the right people and make a change?
I know we don't get the number of responses here that some of us were accustomed to in the old dyestat days but so far it sure seems that everyone is on the same page. So the next question has to be, "What can we do to help get this rule changed?"

I am proud of how we got the girls 5k put in to play in KS but ashamed it took so long to do what was obviously right thing. This also seems obvious to all of us so far which is why I'd still really like to hear why this rule even exists. It makes me wonder what I am not understanding or if it is indeed just a flawed, old rule.

This issue seems far less polarizing than the 5k issue so how can we get our voices heard by the right people and make a change?
03/31/2017 12:36:56 PM
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New rules can only be presented to KSHSAA by certain organization (leagues, principles/ADs, coaches associations etc). WE as coaches have to show some initiative to get the word to every person of influence as we can. Talk with everyone whether they want to listen or not. What we are really up against us is the LACK of motivation & indifference. This is the problem with ALL proposed changes. Keep in mind that the 5k issue was not resolved until an outside source put the pressure on KSHSAA by threatening a lawsuit! Sadly, we as coaches could not come to a consensus, and thus gridlock.
New rules can only be presented to KSHSAA by certain organization (leagues, principles/ADs, coaches associations etc). WE as coaches have to show some initiative to get the word to every person of influence as we can. Talk with everyone whether they want to listen or not. What we are really up against us is the LACK of motivation & indifference. This is the problem with ALL proposed changes.

Keep in mind that the 5k issue was not resolved until an outside source put the pressure on KSHSAA by threatening a lawsuit! Sadly, we as coaches could not come to a consensus, and thus gridlock.
04/02/2017 1:46:27 PM
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Like Aaron said, we have to get the message to the people with the power to take the issue to KSHSAA. Coaches need to understand that we do have a voice. After the threatened lawsuit in the girls 5k issue the topic went to the Kansas AD's association and our AD at Saint Thomas Aquinas proposed the bill that was voted on by the AD's Association to implement the 5k for girls. We have a voice and we need to use it to communicate with the proper people. We need to work together to defeat apathy and indifference and make changes that will be good for the kids and the sport. Talk to you AD's and principals.
Like Aaron said, we have to get the message to the people with the power to take the issue to KSHSAA. Coaches need to understand that we do have a voice. After the threatened lawsuit in the girls 5k issue the topic went to the Kansas AD's association and our AD at Saint Thomas Aquinas proposed the bill that was voted on by the AD's Association to implement the 5k for girls. We have a voice and we need to use it to communicate with the proper people. We need to work together to defeat apathy and indifference and make changes that will be good for the kids and the sport. Talk to you AD's and principals.
04/02/2017 9:53:14 PM
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@Wrigs77 Totally agree. What would also speed up the process even more is finding an uber-talented athlete who can demonstrate they've been disadvantaged by the rule and who's willing to threaten legal action because of it.
@Wrigs77

Totally agree.

What would also speed up the process even more is finding an uber-talented athlete who can demonstrate they've been disadvantaged by the rule and who's willing to threaten legal action because of it.
04/03/2017 2:51:09 PM
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The worst part of the rule is that it prevents teams 500+ miles away from coming to a meet in Kansas. If a Northern Chicago based school wanted to come to Rim Rock they wouldn't be allowed. It dictates rules to schools that they don't even govern. It seems a little like the early days of the A.A.U. implementing its will "just because". Kansas is a small, mostly rural state. We don't have a ton of anything & rarely make a major impact on sports & recruiting on a national scale. We do well for our size but Kansas has less then 1% of the U.S. population & we only have the 87th & (half) the 30th largest metropolitan areas in the country. We should not have rules that make it harder to help our athletes & teams from gaining national notoriety.
The worst part of the rule is that it prevents teams 500+ miles away from coming to a meet in Kansas. If a Northern Chicago based school wanted to come to Rim Rock they wouldn't be allowed. It dictates rules to schools that they don't even govern. It seems a little like the early days of the A.A.U. implementing its will "just because".

Kansas is a small, mostly rural state. We don't have a ton of anything & rarely make a major impact on sports & recruiting on a national scale. We do well for our size but Kansas has less then 1% of the U.S. population & we only have the 87th & (half) the 30th largest metropolitan areas in the country. We should not have rules that make it harder to help our athletes & teams from gaining national notoriety.
04/06/2017 1:55:11 PM
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[quote=CoachBallew] It dictates rules to schools that they don't even govern. It seems a little like the early days of the A.A.U. implementing its will "just because".[/quote] @CoachBallew Couldn't agree more, Aaron. And the "dictating rules to schools they don't even govern" may be the strongest basis to get rid of the ruled, or at least change that portion.
CoachBallew wrote:
It dictates rules to schools that they don't even govern. It seems a little like the early days of the A.A.U. implementing its will "just because".


@CoachBallew

Couldn't agree more, Aaron. And the "dictating rules to schools they don't even govern" may be the strongest basis to get rid of the ruled, or at least change that portion.
04/07/2017 12:40:00 PM
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As many of you know, our team can not travel out of State for competition. This isn't a KSHSAA rule, but a rule that our Diocese has put in place due to funding restrictions. Our parishes foot the bill for our kids to go to school at Bishop Carroll Catholic High School, and when they are having trouble paying their bills it is difficult to justify the additional expense of traveling out of State. I only mention this so that what I say next has some context for those of you who maybe don't know me as well as others do. First, I enjoy the evident passion and commitment to our kids that has been expressed in the posts here. In addition, though it would have little benefit to me, other than maybe seeing some different schools at Rim Rock, I too think that the rule seems like something that should be changed. My questions at this point are these, has a proposal about it ever been offered to KSHSAA? To my knowledge it hasn't. I understand for many of the coaches who supported the 5k move, the issue seemed like a no brainier, and that the change came too slowly. Additionally, the change was accelerated by the threat of a law suit, however, I have confidence that the change was coming anyway. My second question do people who love this sport and the kids who participate in it, really want to advocate a law suit in an attempt to change a policy that nobody has as of yet proposed changing? Furthermore, since no change has been proposed, then a change to the policy hasn't been denied, correct? Wouldn't it be best to first make the proposal, and do one's due diligence in making sure the proposal is heard, that people understand its need, and that support is built for the change...? KSHSAA is a representative body. It is made up of its members. Those members, rightly so, take into account the position of their coaches, principals, ADs; etc. The 5k proposal was made on several occasions and then rejected by those members. Many of us disagreed with that rejection, but I believe KSHSAA was acting in accordance with the directive of it members. I for one don't want to see a situation where that representation and process is circumvented by threat of law suit every time a policy change is proposed. I would also like to offer one observation. I know coaches who came down on both sides of 5K issue. Those who I spoke with on both sides were motivated and active in giving their opinions. True, it has been frustrating to see polls go out and have so few coaches respond, but clearly the people who were responding cared enough to do so, and those who opposed showed up in those polls with greater number and frequency than those who agreed. I can't help but wonder if some of our inability to reach consensus isn't, at least in part, based on a seeming willingness to assume that those who disagree with us do so out of, apathy, ignorance, indifference, or stupidity. Wrigley asked a legitimate question, and I believe he truly wants to know if he is missing something here, however, after reading through the posts does it seem probable that someone who has a reason for supporting the 500 mile ban would feel that their opinion would be listened to. If it is assumed that they are indifferent, ignorant, unmotivated, hurting kids, part of these folks, or participating in this kind of stupidity, then why take the time to attempt to prove otherwise. I am not sure, but I feel like the discussion boards could be more lively if we were willing to make less assumptions. If a post turns into a rant against someone, something, or some idea that one disagrees with, then I think it is more likely these posts will simply promote group think rather than true discussion. Of course, perhaps...I am the one who is making assumptions and if so I apologize.
As many of you know, our team can not travel out of State for competition. This isn't a KSHSAA rule, but a rule that our Diocese has put in place due to funding restrictions. Our parishes foot the bill for our kids to go to school at Bishop Carroll Catholic High School, and when they are having trouble paying their bills it is difficult to justify the additional expense of traveling out of State. I only mention this so that what I say next has some context for those of you who maybe don't know me as well as others do.

First, I enjoy the evident passion and commitment to our kids that has been expressed in the posts here. In addition, though it would have little benefit to me, other than maybe seeing some different schools at Rim Rock, I too think that the rule seems like something that should be changed. My questions at this point are these, has a proposal about it ever been offered to KSHSAA? To my knowledge it hasn't. I understand for many of the coaches who supported the 5k move, the issue seemed like a no brainier, and that the change came too slowly. Additionally, the change was accelerated by the threat of a law suit, however, I have confidence that the change was coming anyway. My second question do people who love this sport and the kids who participate in it, really want to advocate a law suit in an attempt to change a policy that nobody has as of yet proposed changing? Furthermore, since no change has been proposed, then a change to the policy hasn't been denied, correct?

Wouldn't it be best to first make the proposal, and do one's due diligence in making sure the proposal is heard, that people understand its need, and that support is built for the change...?

KSHSAA is a representative body. It is made up of its members. Those members, rightly so, take into account the position of their coaches, principals, ADs; etc. The 5k proposal was made on several occasions and then rejected by those members. Many of us disagreed with that rejection, but I believe KSHSAA was acting in accordance with the directive of it members. I for one don't want to see a situation where that representation and process is circumvented by threat of law suit every time a policy change is proposed.

I would also like to offer one observation. I know coaches who came down on both sides of 5K issue. Those who I spoke with on both sides were motivated and active in giving their opinions. True, it has been frustrating to see polls go out and have so few coaches respond, but clearly the people who were responding cared enough to do so, and those who opposed showed up in those polls with greater number and frequency than those who agreed. I can't help but wonder if some of our inability to reach consensus isn't, at least in part, based on a seeming willingness to assume that those who disagree with us do so out of, apathy, ignorance, indifference, or stupidity. Wrigley asked a legitimate question, and I believe he truly wants to know if he is missing something here, however, after reading through the posts does it seem probable that someone who has a reason for supporting the 500 mile ban would feel that their opinion would be listened to. If it is assumed that they are indifferent, ignorant, unmotivated, hurting kids, part of these folks, or participating in this kind of stupidity, then why take the time to attempt to prove otherwise.

I am not sure, but I feel like the discussion boards could be more lively if we were willing to make less assumptions. If a post turns into a rant against someone, something, or some idea that one disagrees with, then I think it is more likely these posts will simply promote group think rather than true discussion. Of course, perhaps...I am the one who is making assumptions and if so I apologize.
04/08/2017 7:24:35 PM
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Excellent points made by Coach Swords. As always, a great mind and great coach who is always thinking about what is best for the sport and the kids involved. I truly would like to hear more about why the rule exists and then if it is thought by the majority to be time for a change then lets all act on that by notifying our respective administrators. Someone has voted in this poll that the travel rule is good so I would like to hear that opinion. Having all the opinions and information is always a good thing when making a decision.
Excellent points made by Coach Swords. As always, a great mind and great coach who is always thinking about what is best for the sport and the kids involved. I truly would like to hear more about why the rule exists and then if it is thought by the majority to be time for a change then lets all act on that by notifying our respective administrators.

Someone has voted in this poll that the travel rule is good so I would like to hear that opinion. Having all the opinions and information is always a good thing when making a decision.
04/24/2017 3:22:58 PM
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[quote=Wrigs77]I know we don't get the number of responses here that some of us were accustomed to in the old dyestat days but so far it sure seems that everyone is on the same page. So the next question has to be, "What can we do to help get this rule changed?" I am proud of how we got the girls 5k put in to play in KS but ashamed it took so long to do what was obviously right thing. This also seems obvious to all of us so far which is why I'd still really like to hear why this rule even exists. It makes me wonder what I am not understanding or if it is indeed just a flawed, old rule. This issue seems far less polarizing than the 5k issue so how can we get our voices heard by the right people and make a change?[/quote] @Wrigs77 You might try explaining how Missouri used to have the same rule but finally came to its (our) senses and allowed for a 1 meet exception per year. And amazingly, the sky never fell on us over here after we changed that rule. Perhaps thinking they are falling behind Missouri would be motivation; I don't know. Sean Nunn Distance coach Raytown South High School Raytown, MO
Wrigs77 wrote:
I know we don't get the number of responses here that some of us were accustomed to in the old dyestat days but so far it sure seems that everyone is on the same page. So the next question has to be, "What can we do to help get this rule changed?"

I am proud of how we got the girls 5k put in to play in KS but ashamed it took so long to do what was obviously right thing. This also seems obvious to all of us so far which is why I'd still really like to hear why this rule even exists. It makes me wonder what I am not understanding or if it is indeed just a flawed, old rule.

This issue seems far less polarizing than the 5k issue so how can we get our voices heard by the right people and make a change?


@Wrigs77

You might try explaining how Missouri used to have the same rule but finally came to its (our) senses and allowed for a 1 meet exception per year. And amazingly, the sky never fell on us over here after we changed that rule.
Perhaps thinking they are falling behind Missouri would be motivation; I don't know.

Sean Nunn
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Raytown South High School
Raytown, MO
04/24/2017 9:06:43 PM
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It's a great suggestion. Hell, it only took us about 40 years to follow your lead on the girls 5k.
It's a great suggestion. Hell, it only took us about 40 years to follow your lead on the girls 5k.
04/25/2017 10:36:58 PM
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[quote=Wrigs77]It's a great suggestion. Hell, it only took us about 40 years to follow your lead on the girls 5k.[/quote] @Wrigs77 Even that wasn't voluntary. It took the threat of an OCR charge and suddenly - voila! - we're running 5K after years of being shot down. Funny how that works. Sorry if that sounds cynical. Occupational hazard.
Wrigs77 wrote:
It's a great suggestion. Hell, it only took us about 40 years to follow your lead on the girls 5k.


@Wrigs77

Even that wasn't voluntary. It took the threat of an OCR charge and suddenly - voila! - we're running 5K after years of being shot down. Funny how that works.

Sorry if that sounds cynical. Occupational hazard.

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