new state course name?
11/04/2018 11:49:30 AM
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is there an official name for the new state course in Columbia? any chance the state meet WON'T be held there in 2019?
is there an official name for the new state course in Columbia?

any chance the state meet WON'T be held there in 2019?
11/04/2018 12:43:34 PM
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@missilesilo Speaking with Don Mauer yesterday he was 100% sure the course will be ready although all the other amenities may not.
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Speaking with Don Mauer yesterday he was 100% sure the course will be ready although all the other amenities may not.
11/04/2018 2:05:54 PM
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Dean, What do we know about the new course. Will be all flat? Is there a rough sketch or blueprints to what it might look like?
Dean, What do we know about the new course. Will be all flat? Is there a rough sketch or blueprints to what it might look like?
11/04/2018 2:31:36 PM
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I do not know. If we get some info on Thursday at the advisory committee meeting, we will pass it on.
I do not know. If we get some info on Thursday at the advisory committee meeting, we will pass it on.
11/04/2018 2:41:34 PM
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Thanks,
Thanks,
11/04/2018 8:12:08 PM
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We went there on Friday night and looked around. One of our kids found a tentative map online and a lot of it appeared to be marked with some cones and stakes (start line, finish line, where tent city would be, etc). It was pretty much all dirt right now (it looked like they were doing some infrastructure type work like putting pipe in, etc right now), but we definitely got a pretty good ideas for how a lot of it would be. There were some hills and inclines, but it was definitely flatter than Oak Hills if people are wondering that. Lots of trees around the course and a pond in the middle, which made it really a pretty course. I would say parking would be my major concern looking at it, but it isn’t like parking wasn’t an issue at Oak Hills, as well. Overall, it looked really nice and there are some really big soccer/ultimate frisbee fields right there that kids can probably warm up on which is where are kids did their run on Friday.
We went there on Friday night and looked around. One of our kids found a tentative map online and a lot of it appeared to be marked with some cones and stakes (start line, finish line, where tent city would be, etc). It was pretty much all dirt right now (it looked like they were doing some infrastructure type work like putting pipe in, etc right now), but we definitely got a pretty good ideas for how a lot of it would be. There were some hills and inclines, but it was definitely flatter than Oak Hills if people are wondering that. Lots of trees around the course and a pond in the middle, which made it really a pretty course. I would say parking would be my major concern looking at it, but it isn't like parking wasn't an issue at Oak Hills, as well.

Overall, it looked really nice and there are some really big soccer/ultimate frisbee fields right there that kids can probably warm up on which is where are kids did their run on Friday.
11/04/2018 8:20:19 PM
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Here is a pretty good article about the course from this past summer. [url=https://www.google.com/amp/www.columbiatribune.com/sports/20180711/columbia-cross-country-course-in-works%3ftemplate=ampart]https://www.google.com/amp/www.columbiatribune.com/sports/20180711/columbia-cross-country-course-in-works%3ftemplate=ampart[/url]
11/04/2018 8:24:19 PM
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And here is the map that he found, as well. [url=https://goo.gl/images/fqf7Sn]https://goo.gl/images/fqf7Sn[/url]
And here is the map that he found, as well.

https://goo.gl/images/fqf7Sn
11/04/2018 10:45:16 PM
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Here’s another article from August with a few more blueprints [url=https://www.columbiamissourian.com/sports/mizzou_sports/gans-creek-cross-country-course-scheduled-to-host-sec-championships/article_0c54c3e8-a491-11e8-9bf4-9b1b49bf4587.html]Article...[/url]
Here's another article from August with a few more blueprints

Article...
11/05/2018 11:00:03 AM
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[url=https://www.mapmyrun.com/routes/view/2309280412]https://www.mapmyrun.com/routes/view/2309280412[/url]
11/05/2018 12:35:42 PM
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So, by looking at the map we are going to have a race looping around the starting line while we have other athletes at the starting line trying to prepare for their race. Seems to me like that could be problematic
So, by looking at the map we are going to have a race looping around the starting line while we have other athletes at the starting line trying to prepare for their race. Seems to me like that could be problematic
11/05/2018 1:07:59 PM
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@mfigas.flosports I do think that will be a big enough space it won't be as tight as previous course.
@mfigas.flosports I do think that will be a big enough space it won't be as tight as previous course.
11/05/2018 2:00:49 PM
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I'm most excited about the start and finish being as close as they are. That's going to greatly help us maximize our coverage of the meet from a journalist standpoint. But it should also help coaches who have athletes in both races. Even though the races aren't typically back to back, it'll give you all more decompression time after the first race and should relieve any worries about whether or not your next group of athletes are on schedule - especially since tent city is like 5 steps from the start line, too, according to the renderings. Having to sprint 800 meters to the start with only 15 mins between the finish and start of the next one is kind of a drag for us journalists. The mile being as far away as it is is kind of a drag, too, but the 2 mile being closer sure helps. I think having a less challenging course will be a great benefit for the athletes in the state as they now get a chance to run their best when they should be at their best. Nobody is peaking for Chile Pepper or Camdenton or MoSo Stampede. This gives the kids an opportunity to really pad their resumes for colleges who may have them on the radar. It also just helps them mentally - gives them another way to see their hard work has paid off, especially since only 15% of the kids in each race will walk away with an individual medal. Maybe they get a shiny new PR or maybe both! This also could help elevate Missouri on the national scene. I get the "want a fast race? run a track meet" or "cross country isn't about running fast, it's about who's the strongest" positions, but we've already made Oak Hills less challenging recently for some of the same reasons so this should just be icing on the cake. Just hope it's done sooner rather than later so we all get a chance to see it!
I'm most excited about the start and finish being as close as they are. That's going to greatly help us maximize our coverage of the meet from a journalist standpoint. But it should also help coaches who have athletes in both races. Even though the races aren't typically back to back, it'll give you all more decompression time after the first race and should relieve any worries about whether or not your next group of athletes are on schedule - especially since tent city is like 5 steps from the start line, too, according to the renderings. Having to sprint 800 meters to the start with only 15 mins between the finish and start of the next one is kind of a drag for us journalists. The mile being as far away as it is is kind of a drag, too, but the 2 mile being closer sure helps.

I think having a less challenging course will be a great benefit for the athletes in the state as they now get a chance to run their best when they should be at their best. Nobody is peaking for Chile Pepper or Camdenton or MoSo Stampede. This gives the kids an opportunity to really pad their resumes for colleges who may have them on the radar. It also just helps them mentally - gives them another way to see their hard work has paid off, especially since only 15% of the kids in each race will walk away with an individual medal. Maybe they get a shiny new PR or maybe both! This also could help elevate Missouri on the national scene. I get the "want a fast race? run a track meet" or "cross country isn't about running fast, it's about who's the strongest" positions, but we've already made Oak Hills less challenging recently for some of the same reasons so this should just be icing on the cake. Just hope it's done sooner rather than later so we all get a chance to see it!
11/05/2018 5:35:16 PM
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Here are the proposed maps and grounds that I was given of the new course area. [url=http://northwesttrack.org/cross%20country/Files/Course%20Maps/Ganz%20Creek%20Recreation%20Area%20Proposed%20CC%20Course.pdf]Ganz Creek Recreation Area Cross Country Course[/url]
Here are the proposed maps and grounds that I was given of the new course area.

Ganz Creek Recreation Area Cross Country Course
11/05/2018 5:51:57 PM
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@deekenkyle [quote=deekenkyle] I think having a less challenging course will be a great benefit for the athletes in the state as they now get a chance to run their best when they should be at their best. Nobody is peaking for Chile Pepper or Camdenton or MoSo Stampede. This gives the kids an opportunity to really pad their resumes for colleges who may have them on the radar. It also just helps them mentally - gives them another way to see their hard work has paid off, especially since only 15% of the kids in each race will walk away with an individual medal. Maybe they get a shiny new PR or maybe both! This also could help elevate Missouri on the national scene. I get the "want a fast race? run a track meet" or "cross country isn't about running fast, it's about who's the strongest" positions, but we've already made Oak Hills less challenging recently for some of the same reasons so this should just be icing on the cake. Just hope it's done sooner rather than later so we all get a chance to see it![/quote] Quoting Nunn, "Time qualifiers would just dumb down the sport and cause everyone to go to nothing but fast courses, which IMO ruins the essence of the sport. Unfortunately with state looking to be on a cupcake course from now on, I believe that is the direction we are going as a sport. To me this lessens one of the great life lessons that kids get from cross-country: life is tough, but if you work hard and do the best you can consistently, you can have success at some level and be proud of it." And to agree with Tbluej in that "cross country seems to have taken on the role of our culture in general, in that easier is better," is apparently true. I feel that "padding the resume" with a cupcake course (the flat, short, etc., whether peaked or not, as college coach know or should know after talking with a recruit about their races, what kind of course(s) they are running on. They (coaches) can look at results and see if a kid ran 45 secs-1:15+ faster on x,y,or z course(s) then in was probably a pancake and most likely short. How will having a cupcake course get MO on the national scene? I think that has already been accomplished by those athletes prior who busted their humps on the tough state course and then went on to compete in Foot Locker/NXN against surrounding state/national athletes. How will having an easier state course and faster times to be recruited with help athletes transitioning to college, where men are 8k-10k, especially, and are not all pancake courses? College coach finds out really quick that Athlete A can only run well on easy courses, but conference, regionals, and/or nationals is fairly/moderately hilly. Well, count him/her out to help us advance. Padding a resume means you show adversity and diversity. If you can only run well on flat courses, that's not padding your resume, that's omitting your weakness(es). I'll conclude with this question. If you were hiring for a coaching job and were presented a resume of a coach whose runners who only ran well on flat courses versus a coach whose runners ran well on on all types of courses, or peaked at the end of season to run season or personal bests on tough/hilly courses, which coach would you hire?
@deekenkyle
deekenkyle wrote:

I think having a less challenging course will be a great benefit for the athletes in the state as they now get a chance to run their best when they should be at their best. Nobody is peaking for Chile Pepper or Camdenton or MoSo Stampede. This gives the kids an opportunity to really pad their resumes for colleges who may have them on the radar. It also just helps them mentally - gives them another way to see their hard work has paid off, especially since only 15% of the kids in each race will walk away with an individual medal. Maybe they get a shiny new PR or maybe both! This also could help elevate Missouri on the national scene. I get the "want a fast race? run a track meet" or "cross country isn't about running fast, it's about who's the strongest" positions, but we've already made Oak Hills less challenging recently for some of the same reasons so this should just be icing on the cake. Just hope it's done sooner rather than later so we all get a chance to see it!


Quoting Nunn, "Time qualifiers would just dumb down the sport and cause everyone to go to nothing but fast courses, which IMO ruins the essence of the sport. Unfortunately with state looking to be on a cupcake course from now on, I believe that is the direction we are going as a sport. To me this lessens one of the great life lessons that kids get from cross-country: life is tough, but if you work hard and do the best you can consistently, you can have success at some level and be proud of it."

And to agree with Tbluej in that "cross country seems to have taken on the role of our culture in general, in that easier is better," is apparently true.

I feel that "padding the resume" with a cupcake course (the flat, short, etc., whether peaked or not, as college coach know or should know after talking with a recruit about their races, what kind of course(s) they are running on. They (coaches) can look at results and see if a kid ran 45 secs-1:15+ faster on x,y,or z course(s) then in was probably a pancake and most likely short.

How will having a cupcake course get MO on the national scene? I think that has already been accomplished by those athletes prior who busted their humps on the tough state course and then went on to compete in Foot Locker/NXN against surrounding state/national athletes. How will having an easier state course and faster times to be recruited with help athletes transitioning to college, where men are 8k-10k, especially, and are not all pancake courses? College coach finds out really quick that Athlete A can only run well on easy courses, but conference, regionals, and/or nationals is fairly/moderately hilly. Well, count him/her out to help us advance.

Padding a resume means you show adversity and diversity. If you can only run well on flat courses, that's not padding your resume, that's omitting your weakness(es).

I'll conclude with this question. If you were hiring for a coaching job and were presented a resume of a coach whose runners who only ran well on flat courses versus a coach whose runners ran well on on all types of courses, or peaked at the end of season to run season or personal bests on tough/hilly courses, which coach would you hire?
11/05/2018 7:33:38 PM
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@TheInformant AMEN!
@TheInformant AMEN!
11/05/2018 7:44:17 PM
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I have been to many xc course that have college meets including Indiana State's. None are as hard as Oak Hill in any format. I would also state that last year there was somewhat muted excitement for athletes running in bad conditions out of the running for top four team or top 25 medals. The sport is tough whether the course is hilly or flat and it's all relative. I of course are against everyone getting a medal culture. But finishing the season with a fast time is good motivation for even the slowest kid. Also, there has not been a season in I don't know how long where we have not hosted a district or sectional meet. So many kids will still have a challenging course as long as Olzaka and I are coaching XC. So not sure state needs to be. We ran on Muddy or hilly courses all season because most were on our facility. I would argue a bigger issue moving forward is the lack of programs being willing to host and the lack of participation in high school athletics in general.
I have been to many xc course that have college meets including Indiana State's. None are as hard as Oak Hill in any format. I would also state that last year there was somewhat muted excitement for athletes running in bad conditions out of the running for top four team or top 25 medals. The sport is tough whether the course is hilly or flat and it's all relative. I of course are against everyone getting a medal culture. But finishing the season with a fast time is good motivation for even the slowest kid. Also, there has not been a season in I don't know how long where we have not hosted a district or sectional meet. So many kids will still have a challenging course as long as Olzaka and I are coaching XC. So not sure state needs to be. We ran on Muddy or hilly courses all season because most were on our facility. I would argue a bigger issue moving forward is the lack of programs being willing to host and the lack of participation in high school athletics in general.
11/05/2018 7:44:20 PM
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@TheInformant Okay so from now on I will no longer be posting and processing times from Camdenton, Chile Pepper, MoSo, East Newton, Nixa, Castlewood, Francis Park, or Liberty North, if we don't think we should be running notoriously flat/fast courses. Hopefully those athletes don't mind that I removed their hard earned times from their profiles because the course wasn't "tough enough." From now on, we will only acknowledge times Sioux Passage, Cole County, Parkway Central, Cape County Park, Oak Hills, Big Driver, and Lake Jacomo as legitimate indicators of how good an athlete is. All the others are still up for debate. Take it from a dude who works at National right now. Nobody in Austin knows who any of these kids are and nobody cares. How did the Lafayette boys blow up on the national scene? Ran fast. How did Taylor Werner and Hannah Long do it? Ran fast. Anybody see an article about Victor Mugeche or Ryan Riddle or Victoria Findley at national last year, besides Arcadia-gate? I had to lobby for LSW to get some attention after their McQuaid win. They didn't even know what that school was and the Titans had just ran sub-9 in the 4x8 3 months ago! They still leave out the “West.” The casual observer (e.g., a college coach not from the Midwest) takes one look at the times from Saturday and says "man that state stinks" especially when they look at IL, for example. And I think we all know that this state HARDLY stinks. This limits the athlete's potential choices. I know it first hand, but won't bore you with the anecdote. But I love these arguments, keep em comin'. So just because we run fast courses that means kids aren't tough enough? Why does our state course have to be one of the toughest? Why don't we keep running Sioux Passage and Parkway Central during the season, have some fun, shake it up a bit, but when it comes to the finale, why don't we want to see what our kids can really do? Why don't we want to see their eyes light up when they break 15 or 18 for the first time? Also, if we hate these flat fast courses so much, why are people driving 5 hours for MoSo and Memphis and Chile Pepper, but only 3 of the 32 teams at Sioux Passage were from outside the STL Metro area. If we were really gonna start handing out participation trophies, we'd bump all-state to 50. Right now, about 15% of kids actually go home with an individual medal. A few more get team medals, but I think those are pretty well earned, especially when, for example, there were 96 boys teams who scored 5 this year in C4 and only 4 (4.2%) got trophies. This is hardly a participation trophy argument to want to see kids run fast. And to your NXN point, not everyone gets that opportunity. And by the way, NXR Midwest is a "cupcake course." But also, how can you be mad about this course with the renderings Coach House just shared. Look at that finish chute! I might bandit the state meet just to run that final straight (kidding, sort of).. 45 boxes on a straight line with no terrain changes! Tent city 5 steps away from the start and finish line! I’m psyched.
@TheInformant Okay so from now on I will no longer be posting and processing times from Camdenton, Chile Pepper, MoSo, East Newton, Nixa, Castlewood, Francis Park, or Liberty North, if we don't think we should be running notoriously flat/fast courses. Hopefully those athletes don't mind that I removed their hard earned times from their profiles because the course wasn't "tough enough." From now on, we will only acknowledge times Sioux Passage, Cole County, Parkway Central, Cape County Park, Oak Hills, Big Driver, and Lake Jacomo as legitimate indicators of how good an athlete is. All the others are still up for debate.

Take it from a dude who works at National right now. Nobody in Austin knows who any of these kids are and nobody cares. How did the Lafayette boys blow up on the national scene? Ran fast. How did Taylor Werner and Hannah Long do it? Ran fast. Anybody see an article about Victor Mugeche or Ryan Riddle or Victoria Findley at national last year, besides Arcadia-gate? I had to lobby for LSW to get some attention after their McQuaid win. They didn't even know what that school was and the Titans had just ran sub-9 in the 4x8 3 months ago! They still leave out the "West."

The casual observer (e.g., a college coach not from the Midwest) takes one look at the times from Saturday and says "man that state stinks" especially when they look at IL, for example. And I think we all know that this state HARDLY stinks. This limits the athlete's potential choices. I know it first hand, but won't bore you with the anecdote.

But I love these arguments, keep em comin'. So just because we run fast courses that means kids aren't tough enough? Why does our state course have to be one of the toughest? Why don't we keep running Sioux Passage and Parkway Central during the season, have some fun, shake it up a bit, but when it comes to the finale, why don't we want to see what our kids can really do? Why don't we want to see their eyes light up when they break 15 or 18 for the first time? Also, if we hate these flat fast courses so much, why are people driving 5 hours for MoSo and Memphis and Chile Pepper, but only 3 of the 32 teams at Sioux Passage were from outside the STL Metro area.

If we were really gonna start handing out participation trophies, we'd bump all-state to 50. Right now, about 15% of kids actually go home with an individual medal. A few more get team medals, but I think those are pretty well earned, especially when, for example, there were 96 boys teams who scored 5 this year in C4 and only 4 (4.2%) got trophies. This is hardly a participation trophy argument to want to see kids run fast. And to your NXN point, not everyone gets that opportunity. And by the way, NXR Midwest is a "cupcake course."

But also, how can you be mad about this course with the renderings Coach House just shared. Look at that finish chute! I might bandit the state meet just to run that final straight (kidding, sort of).. 45 boxes on a straight line with no terrain changes! Tent city 5 steps away from the start and finish line! I'm psyched.
11/05/2018 8:02:23 PM
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[quote=deekenkyle] The casual observer (e.g., a college coach not from the Midwest) takes one look at the times from Saturday and says "man that state stinks" especially when they look at IL, for example. And I think we all know that this state HARDLY stinks. This limits the athlete's potential choices. I know it first hand, but won't bore you with the anecdote. [/quote] Sorry but any coach worth their salt knows to look at an athlete's complete body of work and not just one time from state. Also, if they are a half decent recruiter they should know what the courses are like that each state runs their championship on or at least look an an elevation map of the course before making a broad statement like "that state stinks".
deekenkyle wrote:


The casual observer (e.g., a college coach not from the Midwest) takes one look at the times from Saturday and says "man that state stinks" especially when they look at IL, for example. And I think we all know that this state HARDLY stinks. This limits the athlete's potential choices. I know it first hand, but won't bore you with the anecdote.


Sorry but any coach worth their salt knows to look at an athlete's complete body of work and not just one time from state.

Also, if they are a half decent recruiter they should know what the courses are like that each state runs their championship on or at least look an an elevation map of the course before making a broad statement like "that state stinks".
11/06/2018 10:08:19 AM
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[quote=TigersCC][quote=deekenkyle] The casual observer (e.g., a college coach not from the Midwest) takes one look at the times from Saturday and says "man that state stinks" especially when they look at IL, for example. And I think we all know that this state HARDLY stinks. This limits the athlete's potential choices. I know it first hand, but won't bore you with the anecdote. [/quote] Sorry but any coach worth their salt knows to look at an athlete's complete body of work and not just one time from state. Also, if they are a half decent recruiter they should know what the courses are like that each state runs their championship on or at least look an an elevation map of the course before making a broad statement like "that state stinks".[/quote] Absolutely agree. College coach should know better and can also use track as a tool to compare and contrast.
TigersCC wrote:
deekenkyle wrote:


The casual observer (e.g., a college coach not from the Midwest) takes one look at the times from Saturday and says "man that state stinks" especially when they look at IL, for example. And I think we all know that this state HARDLY stinks. This limits the athlete's potential choices. I know it first hand, but won't bore you with the anecdote.


Sorry but any coach worth their salt knows to look at an athlete's complete body of work and not just one time from state.

Also, if they are a half decent recruiter they should know what the courses are like that each state runs their championship on or at least look an an elevation map of the course before making a broad statement like "that state stinks".


Absolutely agree. College coach should know better and can also use track as a tool to compare and contrast.

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