Rule Change Proposals?
10/30/2017 12:31:00 PM
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Now that the season is over, I am curious to hear about potential rule change proposals from coaches. I am going to propose a super regional format for 5A/6A, with 18 schools in two regionals, top 6 qualify for state. I think the shift to larger classifications is also a great time to change the regional structure. The potential pros I see to this include a more accurate representation of the top teams at the state meet and no more suspense over regional assignments. The only con I see right now is finding host sites that can accommodate 18 schools- course and parking. I would enjoy hearing and discussing opinions on this proposal and others!
Now that the season is over, I am curious to hear about potential rule change proposals from coaches.

I am going to propose a super regional format for 5A/6A, with 18 schools in two regionals, top 6 qualify for state. I think the shift to larger classifications is also a great time to change the regional structure.

The potential pros I see to this include a more accurate representation of the top teams at the state meet and no more suspense over regional assignments. The only con I see right now is finding host sites that can accommodate 18 schools- course and parking.

I would enjoy hearing and discussing opinions on this proposal and others!
10/30/2017 1:41:56 PM
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I would still like to see the season be extended by one week with regional being this past weekend and state this upcoming weekend. I don't think there is a need to increase the number of competitions, just add an extra week and let coaches decide their own schedules prior to state and regional. This may be helpful with heat issues early on in the season.
I would still like to see the season be extended by one week with regional being this past weekend and state this upcoming weekend. I don't think there is a need to increase the number of competitions, just add an extra week and let coaches decide their own schedules prior to state and regional. This may be helpful with heat issues early on in the season.
10/30/2017 9:13:01 PM
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I would like to see the season extended at least one week as well. I also like your idea regarding the placement of Regionals and State in accordance with that added week.
I would like to see the season extended at least one week as well. I also like your idea regarding the placement of Regionals and State in accordance with that added week.
10/31/2017 11:01:19 AM
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I think having a super regional would be good for the state. The 5A races were the fastest I have seen but they still could have been deeper. There were some pretty good runners left at home from the BVSW regional. I would also be very much in favor of adding a week to the season without adding another meet. Racing 9 5Ks in 9 weeks is crazy enough already. But adding a week to the season could allow a team to go 2 weeks on and 1 week off while still running 5 regular season meets (along with League, Regional and State).
I think having a super regional would be good for the state. The 5A races were the fastest I have seen but they still could have been deeper. There were some pretty good runners left at home from the BVSW regional. I would also be very much in favor of adding a week to the season without adding another meet. Racing 9 5Ks in 9 weeks is crazy enough already. But adding a week to the season could allow a team to go 2 weeks on and 1 week off while still running 5 regular season meets (along with League, Regional and State).
10/31/2017 2:14:25 PM
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Why not swing for the fences and propose dropping the 500-mile travel limit for everybody?
Why not swing for the fences and propose dropping the 500-mile travel limit for everybody?
10/31/2017 7:20:31 PM
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Chris, I am glad you brought this up because soon all head coaches will be polled to get their ideas for rules changes and the only way things even begin to happen is if multiple coaches all voice an opinion on an issue. [b]I am in favor of everything you guys have already discussed:[/b] 1) Super regionals sounds fine with me. 2) Add a week to the schedule. I'd love to get more time to get the new kids acclimated to XC running. 3) Drop the 500 mile rule. Let teams come from far and wide to compete here in KS if they wish. I know people from other regions would love to experience Rim Rock. And let teams travel more than 500 miles, even if only once per season. Kids like Kyler True and Noah Green deserved a chance to compete in meets like Arcadia or Penn Relays. [b]I'd also like to add this:[/b] 4) Let coaches and kids work together after state to prepare for NXR, NXN and Footlocker. 5) Change the state meet schedule so races are starting every half hour. This 35 minute schedule is nonsense. But the bottom line is this, coaches need to participate when the questionnaire is sent out in the next few weeks. If not, we'll be having the same discussion next year and the year after that. EDIT: I deleted "3A, 5A and 6A" in item #5 because I realized both state meets use the same schedule.
Chris,
I am glad you brought this up because soon all head coaches will be polled to get their ideas for rules changes and the only way things even begin to happen is if multiple coaches all voice an opinion on an issue.

I am in favor of everything you guys have already discussed:
1) Super regionals sounds fine with me.

2) Add a week to the schedule. I'd love to get more time to get the new kids acclimated to XC running.

3) Drop the 500 mile rule. Let teams come from far and wide to compete here in KS if they wish. I know people from other regions would love to experience Rim Rock. And let teams travel more than 500 miles, even if only once per season. Kids like Kyler True and Noah Green deserved a chance to compete in meets like Arcadia or Penn Relays.

I'd also like to add this:
4) Let coaches and kids work together after state to prepare for NXR, NXN and Footlocker.

5) Change the state meet schedule so races are starting every half hour. This 35 minute schedule is nonsense.

But the bottom line is this, coaches need to participate when the questionnaire is sent out in the next few weeks. If not, we'll be having the same discussion next year and the year after that.

EDIT: I deleted "3A, 5A and 6A" in item #5 because I realized both state meets use the same schedule.
11/01/2017 11:00:08 AM
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The Super Regional works, by the way. We did it in wrestling last year for similar reasons in that a lot of really good kids were being left home because they were in a very tough region. We moved to a 16-man bracket and it eliminated those one or two "tougher" Regionals amongst the 4 that existed with 8-man brackets. In fact, at State the following week, it was pretty close to even with those who placed out of one Super Regional and those who placed out of the other. Parity became very even with the Super Regionals. More of a question in my opinion, would be why shouldn't we do it instead of why don't we do it? NOBODY I know of argued the wrestling Super Regionals before nor after. It put a lot of debate to rest. Also, get rid of the 500-mile rule. Archaic and meaningless. We have vans, buses, and airplanes now. No longer using horse-drawn buggies to transport athletes. If a team wants to fundraise and travel to the west coast to compete, we should embrace that potential team-building and goal-setting. A lot of teachable moments with far away travel.
The Super Regional works, by the way. We did it in wrestling last year for similar reasons in that a lot of really good kids were being left home because they were in a very tough region. We moved to a 16-man bracket and it eliminated those one or two "tougher" Regionals amongst the 4 that existed with 8-man brackets. In fact, at State the following week, it was pretty close to even with those who placed out of one Super Regional and those who placed out of the other. Parity became very even with the Super Regionals. More of a question in my opinion, would be why shouldn't we do it instead of why don't we do it? NOBODY I know of argued the wrestling Super Regionals before nor after. It put a lot of debate to rest.
Also, get rid of the 500-mile rule. Archaic and meaningless. We have vans, buses, and airplanes now. No longer using horse-drawn buggies to transport athletes. If a team wants to fundraise and travel to the west coast to compete, we should embrace that potential team-building and goal-setting. A lot of teachable moments with far away travel.
11/01/2017 1:00:32 PM
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Wrigs made the point that coaches need to weigh in on the proposals and actually vote. I have had the opportunity to work on proposals for TF and XC as a member of the KS XC and TF Coaches association for the past 15 years. The biggest headache is the response rate from coaches. The state will not even look at proposals if the response rate is less than 70%, and sadly the response rate in some classes is less than 50%. If coaches feel strongly in 5A and 6A about having a super regional, then they need to talk with coaching peers and get them to at least vote. With wrestling going to this model, there is a precedent already, so this would not be something new or special to just one sport.
Wrigs made the point that coaches need to weigh in on the proposals and actually vote. I have had the opportunity to work on proposals for TF and XC as a member of the KS XC and TF Coaches association for the past 15 years. The biggest headache is the response rate from coaches. The state will not even look at proposals if the response rate is less than 70%, and sadly the response rate in some classes is less than 50%. If coaches feel strongly in 5A and 6A about having a super regional, then they need to talk with coaching peers and get them to at least vote. With wrestling going to this model, there is a precedent already, so this would not be something new or special to just one sport.
11/02/2017 8:23:46 AM
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Here are my thoughts: 1) Extend the Season one week. Have Regional Races in Week #11 and State in Week #12 2) Keep the Regional Format with 4 Regionals of 9 Schools only make it so the Top 4 from each Regional advances on to State. This would mean 16 teams at he State meet, but leave the same number of teams (20) not competing. 3)Change the State Schedules so that races are every 30 minutes and start the first race @ 9:00am. I think it is undesirable for the last race at the State meet to start after noon. It was fine this year, but in last year's heat it made for poor conditions for the runners.
Here are my thoughts:
1) Extend the Season one week. Have Regional Races in Week #11 and State in
Week #12

2) Keep the Regional Format with 4 Regionals of 9 Schools only make it so the Top 4 from each Regional advances on to State. This would mean 16 teams at he State meet, but leave the same number of teams (20) not competing.

3)Change the State Schedules so that races are every 30 minutes and start the first race @ 9:00am. I think it is undesirable for the last race at the State meet to start after noon. It was fine this year, but in last year's heat it made for poor conditions for the runners.
11/05/2017 2:36:34 AM
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When it comes to the regional stuff, I believe there is a problem & either "fix" would relieve some stress on the system. I'd prefer the 18 team regionals, keeps the same number of teams at state & allows for more competition for qualifying sports. Wrestling went to it & they love it! Another idea I had was to move the voting for the coaches survey to the Regional meets (maybe even league). If every coach was given the survey ahead of time & had to turn it back in on the day of regional it could really help out turnout on the votes. We as coaches already turn in the "uniform & sportsmanship" form why not a quick survey with Yes & No answers? We would have to start the process of getting topics to vote on earlier but these ideas are already on our minds.
When it comes to the regional stuff, I believe there is a problem & either "fix" would relieve some stress on the system. I'd prefer the 18 team regionals, keeps the same number of teams at state & allows for more competition for qualifying sports. Wrestling went to it & they love it!

Another idea I had was to move the voting for the coaches survey to the Regional meets (maybe even league). If every coach was given the survey ahead of time & had to turn it back in on the day of regional it could really help out turnout on the votes. We as coaches already turn in the "uniform & sportsmanship" form why not a quick survey with Yes & No answers? We would have to start the process of getting topics to vote on earlier but these ideas are already on our minds.
11/06/2017 11:03:04 AM
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Aaron, I like your idea of giving the survey at the Regional meet. I definitely feel that would increase participation. Especially if it was mandated that it be turned in, much like the uniform cards, as you mentioned. I still favor the 4 Regional format over the "Super Regional". Although, I do support the idea of sending 4 teams per Regional to State now that the number of schools in each Regional will be increased. I was impressed by your data, sent via the coaches group e-mail. It clearly shows a trend toward increased quality of 5A teams in the Kansas City Region. However, I think the trend is explained by demographic shifts that favor suburban areas over rural and urban areas, and an influx in talented coaches like yourself into that Region. The fore mentioned demographic issues, seem to be even more magnified in girls sports, which I have not been able to really even venture a guess as to why that is. The "Super Regional" format might seem to address the issue in the short term, but I am not sure that its long term effect is going to be favorable to the sport. Either way I am excited to see what is decided, and I am hopeful that the leadership that is being offered by the coaches from your area will indeed increase coaches participation in the survey. Meanwhile I will go back to trying to figure out how to improve our program so that we can compete with you guys from your Regional again.
Aaron,

I like your idea of giving the survey at the Regional meet. I definitely feel that would increase participation. Especially if it was mandated that it be turned in, much like the uniform cards, as you mentioned.

I still favor the 4 Regional format over the "Super Regional". Although, I do support the idea of sending 4 teams per Regional to State now that the number of schools in each Regional will be increased. I was impressed by your data, sent via the coaches group e-mail. It clearly shows a trend toward increased quality of 5A teams in the Kansas City Region.

However, I think the trend is explained by demographic shifts that favor suburban areas over rural and urban areas, and an influx in talented coaches like yourself into that Region. The fore mentioned demographic issues, seem to be even more magnified in girls sports, which I have not been able to really even venture a guess as to why that is.

The "Super Regional" format might seem to address the issue in the short term, but I am not sure that its long term effect is going to be favorable to the sport.

Either way I am excited to see what is decided, and I am hopeful that the leadership that is being offered by the coaches from your area will indeed increase coaches participation in the survey.

Meanwhile I will go back to trying to figure out how to improve our program so that we can compete with you guys from your Regional again.
11/06/2017 12:21:23 PM
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I would also favor running the races at State by class with boys and girls races in the same class being run consecutively. The current schedule puts a couple of hours between boys and girls races in the same class. Having them consecutively would allow simplified travel and avoid one team from having a much longer wait. Not a big deal but I’ve always it an unnecessary annoyance.
I would also favor running the races at State by class with boys and girls races in the same class being run consecutively. The current schedule puts a couple of hours between boys and girls races in the same class. Having them consecutively would allow simplified travel and avoid one team from having a much longer wait. Not a big deal but I've always it an unnecessary annoyance.
11/06/2017 1:06:24 PM
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@Zat0pek As a coach I would prefer not having my boys and girls race back to back at state. Having time between races allows me to make contact with each athlete and check in on them without having to rush off to the other team at the start line. That is something that I cannot do during the regular season when you have one race after the next during a normal meet and it has been a nice luxury the past few seasons at regional and state meets for us. I think there is too much time between races now and would rather see the races start on the half-hour.
@Zat0pek
As a coach I would prefer not having my boys and girls race back to back at state. Having time between races allows me to make contact with each athlete and check in on them without having to rush off to the other team at the start line. That is something that I cannot do during the regular season when you have one race after the next during a normal meet and it has been a nice luxury the past few seasons at regional and state meets for us. I think there is too much time between races now and would rather see the races start on the half-hour.
11/06/2017 1:59:59 PM
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I'd be curious to know how many courses could handle hosting a super-regional. Not just the course but the parking too. Maybe more than I can think of but I'm not thinking of too many in the KC area. Off the top of my head would be JCCC and WyCo park in Bonner. What else? Years ago I would have said SM Park but not anymore.
I'd be curious to know how many courses could handle hosting a super-regional. Not just the course but the parking too. Maybe more than I can think of but I'm not thinking of too many in the KC area. Off the top of my head would be JCCC and WyCo park in Bonner. What else? Years ago I would have said SM Park but not anymore.
11/06/2017 2:23:14 PM
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@Wrigs77 I think SM Park could handle one 18 team regional. In the past it has hosted two 16 team regionals on the same day, so that would not be much different. The biggest issue I see with SM Park is the starting line. Haskell could probably handle the teams on the course, but parking may be the issue for Haskell. Maybe Baldwin? I have not seen BVSW course, would it be able to handle that number of teams on the course? I would assume parking would not be an issue with the school lots.
@Wrigs77
I think SM Park could handle one 18 team regional. In the past it has hosted two 16 team regionals on the same day, so that would not be much different. The biggest issue I see with SM Park is the starting line. Haskell could probably handle the teams on the course, but parking may be the issue for Haskell. Maybe Baldwin? I have not seen BVSW course, would it be able to handle that number of teams on the course? I would assume parking would not be an issue with the school lots.
11/06/2017 3:48:23 PM
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@BraveDawg That is a DARN good question! The course is still a work in progress, each year we add & adjust a little to make it more "race-able". I think the start & school parking lot can handle the numbers but the size of the course might create a tough time with spectator space. Navigating the facilities once you get there can also be confusing. Anyone that was there for the Regional can feel free to weigh in. I struggle remaining un-biased & would appreciate any constructive feedback.
@BraveDawg
That is a DARN good question! The course is still a work in progress, each year we add & adjust a little to make it more "race-able". I think the start & school parking lot can handle the numbers but the size of the course might create a tough time with spectator space. Navigating the facilities once you get there can also be confusing.

Anyone that was there for the Regional can feel free to weigh in. I struggle remaining un-biased & would appreciate any constructive feedback.
11/07/2017 10:20:38 AM
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@Wrigs77 I really liked what Coach Mick of Newton had to say about Regional meets. That being said, both Lake Afton and Cessna Activity Center could host 18 teams.
@Wrigs77

I really liked what Coach Mick of Newton had to say about Regional meets.

That being said, both Lake Afton and Cessna Activity Center could host 18 teams.

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